Steve Jobs lets it rip

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Steve Jobs lets it rip

Posted Jan 31st, 2010 at 8:51 PM and seen

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Steve Jobs let it rip against Google and Adobe at an employee meeting. There are conflicting reports about what he said about the companies, but this is interesting reading nonetheless.

Robert Scoble, by the way, is also saying that Adobe can’t save Flash, but Google can.

Pardon my interruption but is anyone thinking of the customer? Details, details.

(Via Wired)

More on Apple, Google, and Adobe.

Photo credit: Fotolia

Guy Kawasaki

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over 2 years ago Danny Concannon responded:

I never realized that Scobel was such an Apple fanboy. I understand his point about developers not using Flash because they're worried about support, but the idea that Flash is doomed is predicated on jumping 5 years into the future and assuming that everything is the same. Think about how different things were five years ago and how many insurmountable situations are now looked at as amusing oddities.

over 2 years ago Reno_Web_Design (Twitter) responded:

IMHO Steve's arrogant aggressiveness might be a side effect of chemo that he is going through (or maybe he is already finished?) Steve's business is as awesome as Sergey's, John's and Charles'. They are all extremely talented and gifted businessmen!!

Victor Polyushko, President / Owner
5 Pixels Studio - Reno Web Design
Website: http://www.5pixels.com
Blog: http://www.5pixels.com/blog

over 2 years ago BradHutchings (Twitter) responded:

The whole problem with iPad stems from the premise that it must define some new category. It's a form factor that's been around for quite awhile, and if Apple had put their design stamp on a Mac tablet, it would have been a surefire winner. Nobody would have had any reason to hate it. Instead, Apple is all proud of a giant iPod Touch that aligns everyone with any kind of grievance, because the individual grievances all make tremendous sense and add up to complete ignorance of the market. Jobs just seems deaf to the world.

over 2 years ago Reno_Web_Design (Twitter) responded:

Agree with Brad, iPad is not an innovation but a "someone else's" idea put in a better package.. This one, for example, been introduced before iPad... http://www.infosyncworld.net/2005/04/27/gfx/microsoft_tablet_pc_concept_01.jpg

Victor Polyushko, President / Owner
5 Pixels Studio - Reno Web Design
Website: http://www.5pixels.com
Blog: http://www.5pixels.com/blog

over 2 years ago cgand responded:

@ Reno_Web_Design
Why your example "microsoft_tablet_pc_concept_01.jpg" since 2005 didn't become reality? Apple do poducts, not prototype.

over 2 years ago Markus Bussmann responded:

Steve's aggressiveness has little to do with his chemo - that's bullshit, he never had to by the way. But he certainly feels heavily attacked and is angry at Google for very good reason: Google did in many ways just copy the user interface of the iPhone and did not really innovate there. Steve hates that if he feels somebody copies them (although the best ideas he had are often not his at first). Google innovates heavily on the web, but it was foolish by Google to believe they could do the hardware as good as Apple can within months and believe they can sell the phone on the web only - in Europe that ain't gonna work, no buy with good customer support in your shop, I can tell you that.

Going back 25 years in history, the same story happened to Steve before and he was furious those days too: When he released the Macintosh, Microsoft released Windows 1.0 with most of the GUI that Apple "stole" first from Xerox and overtook Apple by far as they had cheaper hardware available. Steve does not want to let that happen again and sells the iPad for 400 bucks - that was a great step.

I believe in the long run Steve should be more relaxed - he makes more friends with his business model - people that create content such as apps benefit or can give it away for free if they want. That's just great. At Google, everybody knows they give it away for free and pay it by "brainfuck" adds or just steal your private data w/o negotiating. Google may want size such as Microsoft once did - but what does it all payback if you are the most profitable of them all? Apple has thousands of ways to charge their 125 m credit cards - Google just has Adds - that's not enough in the long run.

Adobe can call themself a lucky camper, if they get Googles support - but if somebody sells a webbased creative suite one day or gives it away for free (Google would), well, then Adobe can become Software history sooner than you think -just remember that other big software maker that made it's profit out of one cash cow? The product is called Office and w/o Microsoft would just create a lousy OS that nobody loves but is ubiquitous - just like Google these days in the net.

As the other commentator said - Apple wants to be special and Apple consumer love to feel special too - that should be enough for Apple - leave "world domination" to somebody else and just "think different".

over 2 years ago Rufus Dogg responded:

Consumers want Google, Apple, Microsoft and Adobe Flash to play along well together, regardless of platform. Figure out how to do that and quit "limiting" our choices by trying to corner a market. The playing field is large and only expands if everything just "works" regardless of the brand behind it. Nobody cares if search/maps is done by Google or Bing.. it is the result that matters.

Apple, Google, Adobe and Microsoft can learn a thing or two about the Scott Brown election in Massachusetts as well. Play nice and start talking to each other or we'll bounce your sorry butts too. Votes or dollars, its all pretty much the same out here.

Burst out of your bubbles.

over 2 years ago Mike Pulsifer responded:

I'm a customer and I want to see Flash as it exists to die. With existing web standards, there's nothing Flash can do that AJAX & HTML 5 can't.

Flash is to the iPad as the floppy was to the original iMac.

If Adobe were smart, they'd rebuild and reposition Flash as an AJAX & SVG dev platform tool.

over 2 years ago Markus Bussmann responded:

Mike is more of an engineer as I am, but one thing is for sure since VHS vs. Betamax: The content decides the standard, not the better standard by technical means.

over 2 years ago Fredrik Delin responded:

For web on the mobile phone and other mobile devices, there is a standard supported major manufacturers. It's called "the Open Screen Project" and it is supported by Google, HTC, Motorola, Nokia, Palm, Samsung, Sony Ericsson, RIM.. add companies such as Intel, Cisco, LG, MIPS, Nvidia, Qualcomm, STERN, Verizon Wireless etc.. then we have publishers such as Paramount, New York Times, Marvell, Lionsgate, Comcast, Disney, Fox, Atlantic Records .. bla bla .. Not apple of course. Which is nothing more than a business decision. Really... this discussion was old before it even started.

over 2 years ago Mark responded:

Mike - you say you are a customer but do you think the average customer cares if the website they go to is in line with today's web standards. Do you think they care whether it is flash or html5? No. All they care about is whether the $500 product they just bought will allow them to see every webpage they want to go to. To create a product that excludes a major share of websites that are currently running just to try and corner the market is pure arrogant and greedy.

There are 75 million people who use the Facebook application, Farmville. That Particular app uses flash to run. I am sure not a one of them cares about web standards and I am sure Facebook is not switching up just to appease the people foolish enough to buy a first generation iPad.

I'm sure you will chuckle, laugh and scoff Facebook and believe that the all mighty iPad is far beyond doing such simple childish activities. But considering all the things iPad cannot do I would think it would at least be good for a casual user to surf the internet on but it is not.

I see no practical use for it in my business as a web developer and I see no use for it for the casual computer user so what market is Steve Jobs trying to reach? Oh I know..all of those overly obsessed iGeeks that HAVE to have the latest Apple product.

over 2 years ago adelaide dancing responded:

i've only just recently started getting into flash and now all of the sudden it's becoming obsolete... poo!

over 2 years ago GoCatGo responded:

Apple products are not for everyone … and Apple is fine with that … the iPad is no different in that respect.

Flash is a 20th century technology which we won't miss one it is gone.

And … sorry to go OT a bit … but haven't we gotten past the "Apple stole its GUI from Xerox" bit. It isn't even true. Let it go.

over 2 years ago Mike Pulsifer responded:

They care if the device crashes because of that steaming pile called Flash.

Sent from my iPhone

over 2 years ago Mark responded:

Yeah right, Mike, I'm sure Flash is the #1 culprit for device crashes. Do you really think that Apple eliminate that functionality because of device crashes. Apple didn't add flash support not because it is buggy but to protect iTunes. If people could view free movies on sites like Hulu there would be no need to purchase and download tv shows from iTunes.

over 2 years ago Mike Pulsifer responded:

And then all Hulu has to do is follow YouTube's lead and offer their video in H.264. What then?

Sent from my iPhone

over 2 years ago BradHutchings (Twitter) responded:

Except, Mike, if you've seen any of the comments around the net from the Hulu people about Flash, they can't eliminate it because it provides enough platform-neutral DRM to keep the network TV content providers happy. Same reason they won't allow Hulu to run on game consoles that are too close to the TV experience.

Or in other words, just because Steve Jobs thinks something is crap doesn't mean it is. It means he doesn't like it. Are you looking for a new computer device or to be part of the cult of Steve's ego? That is what you have to ask yourself before shelling out $500 for an iPad and giving them justification for pushing crippled crap on the public.

over 2 years ago Mike Pulsifer responded:

Typical. "zomg, you do/believe whatever Jobs tells you!"

I've been following HTML5 for quite some time. I've been subjected to the numerous browser crashes at the hands of Flash. I've seen Air apps suck the very life out of my machine.

It's time to embrace plug-in free content, especially when those plugins are the cause of so many problems.

Before accusing someone of self-imposed cultish servitude try considering that other people have different and just as valid perspectives on what is "crippled" and what is not. Your use case for these kinds of devices is not the same as everyone else's. Millions of iPhone users likely disagree with your assessment.

As an owner of Adobe products (CS4 Production Premium), I can offer from experience my opinion that Adobe is lazy. Photoshop is stll written in Carbon even though it was evident to someone like myself when OS X was still new that Cocoa was the way forward. Instead, Adobe did what Microsoft does and let it get fat, bloated with legacy code, and in need of a belated rewrite. Flash is unstable and the cause of most problems in OS X.

I wanted Flash gone before Jobs said a thing.

If you don't like it, don't buy it. Just don't assume that anyone who does is some mindless robot that lacks the "enlightened" perspective and device needs that you possess.

Sent from my iPhone

over 2 years ago BradHutchings (Twitter) responded:

So Mike, today you "embrace plug-in free content". That effectively puts source code of web applications out in the open, more accessible to more people who could hack or otherwise disrupt web services. I'm not making a FUD/security point here either. What do you say to Hulu or their content providers who already balk at putting their content too close to the television through the Hulu channel? What do you say to Zynga, who with Flash as a platform are constantly able to innovate their games for upwards of --> 70 MILLION <-->

Given the overwhelming number of people who (probably unknowingly) use and love Flash applications which aren't going to migrate and aren't going away, you're basically on a crusade you're not going to win if you're anti-Flash. It doesn't matter if you're Mike or you're Steve Jobs. And given that you've both taken the crusade to this iPad device (Jobs and company for creating it, you for advocating for it), you've hooked your anchors to something that cannot win.

Steve Jobs is not just playing hardball to compromise later. He can't. Imagine the credibility loss people like you would take if he were to embrace Flash. But worse, imagine the credibility loss his impeccable "taste" would suffer.

over 2 years ago Mike Pulsifer responded:

Today? This has been a point of view of mine for quite some time as I noted in my previous reply.

This hyperventilating over lack of Flash reminds me of when Apple dropped the floppy years before the PC OEMs did. No, the floppy didn't disappear overnight, but those who were hysterically criticizing them for that decision were proven wrong in the end.

Sent from my iPhone

over 2 years ago BradHutchings (Twitter) responded:

Mike, you could get an external USB floppy for your original iMac from several suppliers. That availability is one of the things that made the iMac palatable to skittish educational buyers. I helped an educational buyer navigate this at the time. The price of USB floppies (upwards of $200) wasn't even an issue. You didn't need one for each machine. But they had so much invested in software that had shipped on floppies, they could not abandon the format.

Same deal with today's existing content in Flash. The problem is that there is and can be no way to play that content on iPad without Apple's approval. Adobe has been trying to deliver Flash for iPhone since its inception. Apple hasn't approved it, and there's no other legitimate channel. There is no routing around Apple on Flash as there was with floppies. The floppy comparison doesn't apply to this.

over 2 years ago Mike Pulsifer responded:

It does apply in one sense: you and others are hyperventilating just as was done back then over a decision to drop support for an aged technology that is becoming increasingly irrelevant.

Now one thing hasn't been asked: why support a third party plugin that is known to cause stability problems in OS X (which the iPhone OS is), especially when after three years, that third party has yet to fix the problems? How is a repeatedly crashing phone a better user experience than no Flash? How is it acceptable to support that plugin that would assuredly crash, possibly interrupting a call when (you can browse and surf at the same time. I've done this on several occasions)? Adobe wants it on the iPhone, but they don't want to invest any time or effort into fixing their software.

Simply amazing.

Sent from my iPhone

over 2 years ago BradHutchings (Twitter) responded:

Mike, disagreeing with you is not "hyperventilating". The fact is that Apple needs Adobe Flash more than Adobe Flash needs Apple. That's why there's an uproar over this. For the iPhone, missing Flash is tolerable because nobody expects to use their iPhone as a primary web browser. It works well enough in a pinch when you don't have a laptop with you. Customers will expect Flash to work on the iPad, unless it's just a glorified photo frame that can browse the web in a pinch. It surely isn't meant to be that, is it? I mean, Steve is talking about spending his golden years sitting on his couch with his iPad, right?

over 2 years ago Mike Pulsifer responded:

It's hyperventilating because it's being treated as a travesty.

Now, about my question...

Sent from my iPhone

over 2 years ago BradHutchings (Twitter) responded:

Mike, more like a traveshamockery -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOhi8FOvwaE

Let me illustrate the problem. It's like (hypothetically) if I could go back 20+ years to high school and I needed a date for the prom. So my helpful Dad gets me a blow up doll (I said this was hypothetical) and says it will do all the things I need it to do. But I tell him I also expect intelligent dinner conversation and he looks at me like I've got a pseudo-mullet haircut and an acid washed denim jacket or something.

There is a whole bunch of very useful Flash content out there that most users, whether they know it or not, probably interact with more than occasionally. Be it FarmVille or Hulu or pbs.com. It may or may not be the buggiest crap in the whole world, but it is a _fact_. It actually runs quite well on Windows machines (90%+ installed PC base). I have taken to playing FarmVille in a Parallels VM when I'm home for improved performance. Go figure.

But I think the real question here is if Flash is the #1 source of crashes on Mac OS X, why doesn't Apple dedicate a team of great engineers and either visit or invite their Adobe counterparts down to Cupertino for a couple months to help them work things out? As a (fairly sophisticated) Apple customer, that's what I wonder. And then I think, a company that can't be trusted to work constructively with market partners probably shouldn't be trusted with so much control over a platform.

So now you have a question to answer :-).

over 2 years ago Mike Pulsifer responded:

It's Adobe's product. It's their responsibility to fix it. Flash on OS X is parasitic and Adobe's not lifting a finger to address it, just like how they ignored the inevitable transition to Cocoa.

Even if Adobe took the issue as seriously as it claims, I'd still support sites that allow me to access content withoud need fir additional software.

Instability from random third party is the norm in Windows, but there is a different expectation in Apple's (and my) world.

And before you jump on that, I have and use OS X, Win 7, and Ubuntu on my machine at home.

Sent from my iPhone

over 2 years ago Markus Bussmann responded:

Let met just say I really enjoyed all of your comments - that was a good discussion at a "readable" level - learned a lot on this really interesting matter - my clear guess is that Adobe is in big trouble - whether Google or Apple will set the major standards, we will see. Maybe indeed the user will have an influence, but I'm not sure on that one since the better days of Microsoft.

Thx!

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Steve Jobs lets it rip